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Kalfred

Sheffield History Member
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Kalfred last won the day on May 24

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About Kalfred

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    Spoons and flatware marks.
  1. Thank you "Steve.HB" for this extra snippet of info. Cutlery manufacturers then at least to the late 1950's. Kalfred
  2. Hello, looking for something interesting on line I noticed the 5 inch sauce ladle spoon in the photo below. The maker’s marks “Bennett & Heron” were not known to me but looked informative enough to maybe get a bit more history on. Obviously messes “Bennett & Heron” had put their names on an electroplated spoon that they wanted to tell customers was of “A1” quality. I had a quick search on “silvercollection.it”, an excellent reference site of history for electroplating companies. The reference there suggested “Bennett & Heron Ltd” of Sheffield could be retailers. I had a further search to see if I could find a little extra on the company. Perhaps the extract from the London Gazzette I found, is a starting point. It states up to 1927 they were a company of “Cutlers & Silvermiths”. This is possibly confirmed by the “Sheffield Indexers” entry shown below. HERON, Thomas (~, Cutlery Manufacturer (Bennett & Heron)). Address: 50 Holly Street, ~ in 1925. Recorded in: Sheffield & Rotherham Kelly?s Directory. Who was the silversmith then? I could not find a likely associated silver mark on line and I could not find a reference in the “Indexers” for “Jack Bennett”. I did wonder if the below, 1905, near contemporary “Bennett” reference could have been involved in the company. Bennett, William (, silversmith). Address: 32 Yadley Street, in 1905. Recorded in: White's Directory of Sheffield and Rotherham. We now need more information about “Bennett & Heron Ltd”. When did the firm start in business. Did it change after April 1927? Did they actually develop as retailers and not makers. Has anyone on the forum got any more “stuff” to add for a real history for “Bennett & Heron Ltd”? I found some more photos of “Bennett & Heron” spoons on line but below is something a little different. Kalfred
  3. I checked a few of the listed Sibray Hall & Co hallmarks. They had official marks at the Sheffield assay office and at London. The below mark is an early one for Sheffield, an unembellished letter “O” with a Monarch’s head, so for 1881. It features the initials of Frank Sibray and Job Hall but then, after the death of the former in 1891, there were of marks of various styles but featuring initials of “ Job Frank Hall”. When “Hall” retired around 1900, the company used a “CCP” mark relating to “ Charles Clement Pilling” who had taken the company on. It seems that “CCP” has only been noted on Sheffield or London silver items up to 1922.
  4. The "Sibray Hall & Co" company is an interesting alternative maker idea and the 1931 hallmark date does not totally exclude them. The marks I have posted may have been modified a little at the size I managed to enhance them to. That said the "SH" appears in 2 close but seperate cut corner squares and not in the single rectangle as in yours and the other example on the website I refered to. Silversmiths did however slightly change marks over time and not all changes have been recorded at assay centres. Further enquiries required. Kalfred
  5. Thank you SteveHB and Edmund for adding info to this post. Anybody know about the silversmithing? Did Hall & Co have a base in Sheffield or were the silver parts just "bough in" from Birmingham for Sheffield assay? Thanks Kalfred
  6. Hello is I was trawling through Ebay’s scissors looking for a scissorsmith when I saw the scissors shown below. I was intrigued and I had to have a bid, all be it, ultimately unsuccessfully. I felt I must post a photo, as these grape scissors are certainly “Sheffield”. These mixed metal scissors are easy to date using the date letter associated with the hallmark on the silver finger holes. The unembellished letter “o” without a Monarch’s head, together with the crown (for Sheffield) indicates the assay at the Sheffield Assay Office in 1931. The maker of the silver part of the scissors is indicated by the “S.H.&Co.” but I will reference that later. We can see from the rear pivot area of the scissors that the blades are made of Sheffield England stainless steel and from the pivot front we a clear pictorial probable trademark with lettering below it. The “nest” with eggs in was the trademark of Sheffield’s Southern & Richardson and I think you will be able to “fill in the spaces” to confirm that makers name. These cutlery makers were known at the “Don Cutlery Works” from the middle of the 19th century and there are several images of knives spread around the forum. One of these did suggest the trademark was a “thistle” or has this been a mis-interpretation of the image on a much older and tarnished knife compared to these 20th century scissors. From a reference I think I read on line, technically, the grape scissors may not have been made by “Southern & Richardson” as in the 1920s that named company had been incorporated into a larger Sheffield concern and the latter continued with the trademarks. Hopefully the “forum” can clear this up. Returning to the “S.H.&Co.” maker’s mark now. The website www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk that I always confidently use for identifying British silversmiths, identifies the silver finger parts as having been made “probably, by Sydney Hall & Co”, and gives them an address of “Birmingham”. If there is other information regarding the maker please enlighten us, as there will be would be many interested to know. I hope there are others on the forum, like me, who like and wish they owned the grape scissors. Kalfred
  7. Hello no spoons for me again today. Not all bad though. What do you think? The blades on these scissors are about 3 inches long. We see the "I.XL" mark clearly. On the the other side of the blade pivot area is a less clear mark that I believe says that the scissors are chromium plated.I supose dating the scissors is difficult, but they may well be from the same period as "SteveHB's" Kelly directories ad. Kalfred
  8. Hello can I stir the muddy water a little bit more? This is from a cutlery set. Kalfred
  9. Thanks Edmund In this case it seems the "mark" became the "works". I found another item, sorry not military and not a knife, but sharp non the less. A composite of marks on some scissors below. Kalfred
  10. Hello, have you noticed that that maker's mark on the knife blade looks as if it is an overstrike? It looks to me as if some one else made the silver blade and the "J.F" stamp was put on top. Just around the top of the "J" there appears to be a smaller residual mark of the actual maker. Mr Fenton was likely buying in at least some of the silver blades he was using from a alterative silversmith. Kalfred
  11. The picture below is the 2nd knife I looked at before the auction. I will try to be a bit less boring with this one. This knife was about 4 inches (10cms for younger readers) long. Excellent marks (don’t know about the blades) showing 1945 and the broad arrow. The maker was George Ibberson & Co, and shows their trademark of a “violin”. They are referenced to have been based at the “Violin Works” on “Rockingham Street” 1912-32. Do we know if the “trademark” became the ”works” or if the “works” became the “trademark”? Kalfred
  12. Edmund has nicely bought the John Blyde’s brother James Blyde, (likely born 1833/4 back into the picture again. The 1861 census that described John as a “hardware manufacturer employing 8 men and 2 boys” calls James as a “Surgical ????? manuf”, but it is difficult to discern. Interestingly also in that year, 1861, the old “James” (born 1803) was described as a scissor finisher and you could wonder for whom he was doing that job? Below is a reference that may lead you to a possible 1859 advert for some “Blydes”. http://www.picturesheffield.com/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;y03077&pos=2&action=zoom This reference brings more confusion to my mind as I see three options. We have again a company called “James Blyde and Son”. Is this an old advert from the original company James and John? Is this a new company, old “James” and his 2nd son “James”, or for that young “James” and perhaps with a son of his own? To me it is more likely that it is the 2 “James” together. This company’s base is said to be Hall Carr, Spital Hill and referring again to the 1861 census James the son’s address was “Hall Carr Street” and although he had a son, “James Henry”, the child was only 2 years old. Below is an advert (found by forum member “Vox”) referencing 1869, the year of the “flower and fruit gathering apparatus” patents noted by Edmund. Is there anything significant here, as this ad, has a different name, just James Blyde? We also know from a census that in 1871 old James (1803) was retired (living on income from dividens) while young James (1833) was described as “maker and manufacturer” and employing “5 men and 2 boys”. The concern must have been doing ok though as “James” (1833) was surprisingly, in 1881, a retired merchant and “James Henry” was living at home with his father and mother but his occupation was not stated. “James Henry” was likely involved in the business though, as we have come to another of “Edmund’s” notes. “On 5th October 1885 the partnership between James Henry Blyde and Percy Smith, under the name James Blyde and Co. of the Hallcar Works, Hallcar Street, manufacturer of scissors, nippers and surgical and other instruments was dissolved by mutual consent.” I am wondering where “Percy Smith” has turned up from? Could a possibly ailing James the “1881 retired merchant” have got someone else into the company to help his son. In January 1888 that retired James is said to have died. I looked for Percy Smith on the 1881 census and he was an employer of 31 men and 4 boys manufacturing a large range of goods including nippers, meat tin openers and (perhaps significantly for later) steel toys. Was this “James Blyde & Co”? Images of items of “James Blyde & Co” appear in short supply but I found some 8 inch calipers so labelled but sadly of unknown date. Has anybody got any more items from this company? In 1891 we find that “James Henry” is discribed as a “steel toy manufacturer” and ten years on he is an employer and “cutlery manufacturer” and his son “Percy” is then 12. In 1911 “Percy” has become a “Harry Percy” and is 23. Both “James Henry” and “Harry Percy” are described as “cutlery manufacturers” and that leads on to “Edmund’s” last couple of “pieces” about the pair. I have a couple of my own last snippets. There are references that James Henry Blyde was associated with the trademark of a pictorial “well” and a written “well” and “finished”. I could not find an “on item” example of the mark to show. Also again, what about “Percy Smith”? I found him again on the 1891 census as “employed” as a “Secretary Electroplating Company”. Was that for “James Blyde & Co”? Anyone know more about “Percy Smith”? Subsequently he is a “Registrar” of births, deaths and marriages. As before does anybody know more or different about this stem of the Blyde family? Kalfred.
  13. Hello, I was viewing an auction but could not find any spoons to interest me. I did get a good look at 2 knives with “marline spikes” though.The knife shown below is 5 inches long and marked “Wade and Butcher Sheffield England”. Not illustrated but on the other side of the blade was 1936 but I could not see a War Dept broad arrow. However there appeared to be 2 other pictorial marks. There seemed to be a long arrow with quite a bit of “feathering” and also 3 black triangular marks. At home again and research. Wade and Butcher made razors and we can see the pictorial marks clearly. We see an arrow and a Maltese cross on the examples above. I thought I would do a bit more chasing. Earlier in this post “Vox” said that “Wade” was an American agent so I had a look for “Butcher” in “Sheffield Indexers”. I do not like long lists but there are a great many “Butcher” makers of Sheffield “wares” to be found. I have put the names that I think could be chronological originators of the W and S Butcher part of the company. "Vox" said the company began in 1820, but the first reference I found was 1825 but if you consider their range of wares it does look like an established company by that time. Butcher, William (, merchant and manufacturer of edge tools, skates, saws, files, hoes, trowels, joiners tools, West India and Brazil plantation tools and steel converter and refiner). Address: Eyre Lane, Sheffield in 1825. Recorded in: Gells 1825 Directory of Sheffield. Butcher, William (, merchant). Address: Broom Hill, Sheffield in 1825. Recorded in: Gells 1825 Directory of Sheffield. Butcher, Wm. (, Merchant (&c)). Address: h,Broom Hill, in 1833. Recorded in: Whites History & Directory of Sheffield - 1833. Butcher, William & Samuel (, merchants, steel converters and saw, file and edge tool mfrs.). Address: 15 Eyre Lane, in 1837. Recorded in: Whites Directory of Sheffield & Rotherham - 1837. Butcher, Wm (~, File & Edge Tool Mnfr). Address: 41 & 44 Eyre Lane Hs. Stanton Broom, Glossop Rd, in 1841. Recorded in: Henry & Thos. Rodgers Sheff & Roth Directory - 1841. Butcher, William & Samuel (, Edge tool maker(s)). Address: Eyre Lane and Furnival Street, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William & Samuel (, File Manufacturer(s)). Address: Eyre Lane and Furnival Street, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William & Samuel (, Merchant(s), factor(s) and manufacturer(s)). Address: Eyre Lane and Furnival Street, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William & Samuel (, pen and pocket knife manufacturer). Address: Eyre Lane and Furnival Street, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William & Samuel (, razor manufacturer). Address: Eyre Lane and Furnival Street, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William & Samuel (, rolling mills). Address: Philadelphia, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William & Samuel (, steel converters and refiners). Address: Eyre Lane;Furnival Street and Philadelphia steel works, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William & Samuel (, Table knife manufacturers). Address: Eyre Lane & Furnival Street, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William & Samuel (, Joiners Tool Maker(s)). Address: Eyre Lane, Sheffield in 1846. Recorded in: Slaters 1846 Directory, Sheffield. Butcher, William and Samuel (, Merchant and steel, edgetool, file, razor, saw &c. manufacturer and tilters). Address: 41 Eyre Lane and Philadelphia Steel Works, in 1852. Recorded in: White's Gazetteer & General Directory of Sheffield - 1852. Butcher, William Esq (, Merchant & manufacturer). Address: h. Five Oaks, Glossop Road, in 1852. Recorded in: White's Gazetteer & General Directory of Sheffield - 1852. Butcher, W & S (, File Manufrs). Address: 13 Furnival Street, in 1871. Recorded in: White's Sheffield & Dist. Directory - 1871. Butcher, W.&S. (, Merchants & Manufacturers). Address: 41 Eyre Lane, in 1871. Recorded in: White's Sheffield & Dist. Directory - 1871. Butcher, W.& S. (, manufacturers of steel,files,tools etc.). Address: 41 Eyre Lane & 72 Arundel Street, in 1905. Recorded in: Whites Directory of Sheffield & Rotherham. Butcher, Charles F. (, (W.& S.)). Address: h.Richmond Hill near Handsworth, in 1905. Recorded in: Whites Directory of Sheffield & Rotherham. Butcher, Charles Fosbery (, manufacturer Sheffield). Address: h. Richmond Hill Richmond Handsworth, in 1905. Recorded in: Whites Directory of Sheffield & Rotherham. We can see that they were based in several addresses on Eyre Street along with other places. Also “W&S” was first referenced in the 1837, while William Butcher & C was mentioned in 1833. 1846 was the first reference to “pen and pocket knives” and was “Charles Fosbery Butcher” in charge of the company for the association with “Wade”. Kalfred
  14. Hello Edmund, have you anymore info on James Blyde and Percy Smith. I could not find the reference with Google. It is difficult to work out when and how said Percy Smith got in with James Blyde in the first place and in fact with which James. I have been thinking there was in fact a 2nd James Blyde and Son. Possibly after James (1803) split with John, he continued James and Son with James (1833),  but this is very muddy "Don" water.

    Yours

    Keith

  15. Hello again, usual thing looking for one thing and find something else. All through the history with the "Blydes" are references to scissors and here is that "JNO" mark on a pair. I found some more scissors listed on line. Picture below. We see "John Blyde" on this pair. I think they were around a 5 inch pair and wondered if they were from a period up to 1899 death of "John". Anybody with ideas on that? Kalfred
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