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Peter Hall

Sheffield History Member
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  1. Peter Hall

    Tram train

    Lemmy17 is correct about only four Tram Trains having the correct wheel profiles to operate on heavy rail lines. Initially these were 201-204 but the first day altercation resulted in 206 being given such profiles. Today's altercation involving I believe 202 may mean 205 or 207 might need similar treatment. Three are required for the Parkgate service with the fourth normally on the depot in reserve..
  2. Understand it was quite well publicised on buses the users of which were presumably the principal audience. Spoke to someone who took their son and they gave it the thumbs up. There was a time when the local bus, trolleybus and tram networks reflected civic pride. Open days I feel are a good way of rekindling that especially when a selection of vehicles from the past in traditional colours are included. The efforts of those involved in making these things happen are appreciated.
  3. Having not so far been reprimanded for straying over the boundary into Rotherham I will tempt fate by adding an updated list of all known survivors of Rotherham Corporation Transport (RCT) motorbuses, trolleybuses and support vehicles in Great Britain, three in each category. Actually a very small number when compared with other municipal operations of a similar size. Of particular note is FET 218 the Austin K8 Welders Truck dating back to 1949. Although sold into preservation by SYPTE in 1977 it had been presumed the lack of any reports in recent years were an indication that it no longer survived. That however was not the case and in the last couple of months ownership has changed and it has returned to South Yorkshire. Despite being stored in the open for over twenty years it is in reasonable condition with a full restoration expected to get underway shortly No photographs of FET 218 in service have yet emerged so if anyone has any please make contact. It now has a pick-up style of back which during its later days had a frame with canvas cover. Whether this was how it was originally configured is not known for sure as a previous owner recalls that it may have originally had a conventional van body that was cut down by RCT at some point. Thus the appeal for photographs. Although a number of Austin K8's have been restored, pictures of which can be found on the net, none have a similar pick up style back which does suggest that the one on FET 218 may be a product of the Rawmarsh Road body shop.
  4. Those with long memories may recall the https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/9499-white-lion/ where the mystery surrounding the demise of experimental diesel locomotive 'Lion' was revealed. This being one of a large number of steam and diesel locomotives that was scrapped in Sheffield and the surrounding area in the 1960's and 1970's after seeing British Railways service. Over the years various publications and listings have appeared detailing the scrapping of these locomotives at the local yards of T. W. Ward, C. F. Booth, Arnott Young, Slag Reduction Company and G. Cohen to name just a few. However, much is not known about which locomotives were scrapped where and when. Also, unfortunately a number of errors have crept into the published listings, some accidental, some malicious. Around ten years ago the 'What Really Happened to Steam' project https://www.whatreallyhappenedtosteam.co.uk/ was launched and has made good progress in establishing what was the true disposal of many of the locomotives but many mysteries remain to be resolved. Whilst many local railway enthusiasts have been in contact with the project and provided observations and photographs which have proved invaluable the project is conscious that those with a more broader and general interest in local history may also be able to help. Perhaps they worked at one of the yards or had relatives or friends that did and have anecdotes they can recall from the era. They may also have noted the locomotives or taken the odd photograph or perhaps have on the mantel piece a plate off one of the locomotives as a family heirloom without realising it is a vital clue in establishing what became of the locomotive it was once affixed too. I have started this topic in the hope that members of the forum who may have not been aware of the project and might recall something that might seem insignificant but might be of great interest to the project can post. At the same time giving an insight into this aspect of local history little known about outside railway enthusiast circles.
  5. In the early SYPTE days some of the Rotherham Daimlers were transferred to Doncaster and Greenland garages although use on 69, 277 & 278 routes resulted in it not always being obvious that this had taken place. For a lesser period a very small number also saw use at Herries and Leadmill. Previously a small number had appeared in Sheffield in 1973 during a period of vehicle shortage. The Daimlers were certainly referred to as 'Rotherham Tankers' by Greenland crews, presumably a reflection of them having a more lively performance when compared with the former Sheffield AEC's and Leylands.
  6. Thought this would be quite easy to answer until I spotted a glaring omission in the published Rotherham Corporation Transport Fleet Histories I consulted. All these omitted the 1952 batch of Crossley Double Deckers! Perhaps the reason for the question? Anyhow, further delving reveals these to be 209 - 214 HET 209-214. However, the chassis numbers are not in numerical sequence when it comes to road registrations and quoted delivery months. 95903 HET 509 209 5/52 95904 HET 510 210 6/52 95905 HET 511 211 6/52 95906 HET 512 212 7/52 95907 HET 514 214 9/52 95908 HET 513 213 8/52 Thus, although 213 was the last Crossley built for Rotherham it was not the last delivered. . As far as I am aware 213 is still tucked away in a bomb proof hanger at the Science Museum store at Wroughton Airfield near Swindon. Public Access is now very restricted if permitted at all. Can't say too much on a public forum other than to say an approach was made about displaying 213 at the Midland Road Open Day in 2014. Unfortunately the hoops were set too high for it to have been practical. The hope had been to display all two and a half surviving RCT Motor buses together but in the event only 135 made it, With so few RCT motor buses surviving it is to be hoped that 213 can return home at some point in the future. The South Yorkshire Transport Museum being an ideal home especially since 220 has departed for Beamish. Hope this digression into Rotherham is within the permitted boundaries of this forum.
  7. Indeed, I was very impressed with the restoration when I saw it at the SYTT Open Day in July. Any one who was able to attend the, what I presume was a very hastily arranged, Open Day at Olive Grove (Eastbank in old money) Depot in September was no doubt shocked to see 287's sister 293. I had presumed 293 UWA 293L was no more but seemingly not. It is now also part of the SYTT collection - another update to the list. Personally, I only heard about the Open Day two weeks before and too late to juggle other commitments. Those usually in the know seeming to know little or nothing about it at that stage either.
  8. Volume One of the book Ribble by T. B. Maud contains the following ".... in July 1973 it was agreed that Ribble would take over the 'local' express services between Manchester and Bradford (X12) , Barnsley (X19) Sheffield (X48) and Mansfield" Although no specific date is given by implication some time during the month of July is presumed as when Ribble replaced North Western Road Car..
  9. The 1973 X48 timetable has Monday to Saturday departures from Manchester ay 07:45, 16:30 (Friday & Saturday only) and 18:30; returning from Sheffield at 09:45, 18:30 (Friday & Saturday and 20:30 which suggests the service on those days was solely operated by Ribble. On Sundays departures where at 11:45, 18:30 and 20:30 from Manchester and 09:45, 18:30 and 20:30 from Sheffield suggested Sheffield Transport had two round trips and Ribble one. Will need to do more checking but presume this was the arrangement until November 7th 1980 when Ribble withdrew as a result of the closure of their Manchester depot.. From then until the service was finally withdrawn on 'De-regulation eve' (25th October 1986) two round trips were operated by SYPTE.
  10. Some delving suggests the change from North Western Road Car to Ribble took place during 1973. The May 1973 Sheffield Area Bus & Rail Timetable which reflects the change of Manchester terminus to Chorlton Street shows the X48 as a joint service with North Western Road Car. The November 1973 though shows as a joint service with Ribble Motor Services. An on line history of North Western Road Car states that from 4th March 1972 the company was purely a coach operator without any stage services at all but did retain a depot in Manchester. It is presumed that the X48 was considered as a coach service due to its distance and limited stops. More delving needed as to what actually happened in 1973. .
  11. In order to avoid too much thread drift away from the Sheffield to Manchester via Castleton topic thought it worthwhile to start a separate topic.
  12. Nigel's post prompts me to add the list of survivors from Doncaster and Rotherham Corporations and the independents from these areas.
  13. Known survivors from the SYPTE era are listed below,
  14. Further delving suggests involvement of North Western Road Car Company and Sheffield Transport / Joint Omnibus Committee on routes between Sheffield and Manchester is quite complex and an element of blurring of references between the routes may have crept in. Working South to North this is how I know understand the post World War II history. 72 via Mam Tor Summer only extension of Sheffield - Castleton service. All journeys beyond Castleton operated by North Western. Operated from 1950 - 1966. 39 via Snake Pass Summer only service that appears to have been jointly operated between North Western and SJOC. Operated from 1950 - 1966. There after SJIOC operated a Summer Sunday service from Sheffield to Snake Inn. 48 via Woodhead Daily service operated solely by SJOC until 31/12/69. Chas Hall's book says that a result of the 1968 Transport Act was that it became jointly operated between STD and the NBC. The NBC subsidiary involved was presumably North Western. Certainly they were involved from 3/1/71 when the Manchester terminus was changed to Lower Mosely Street. At some point North Western were replaced by Ribble Motor Services. This may have been 4/3/72 when North Western Manchester area local services passed to SELNEC or 4/5/73 when the Manchester terminus was altered to Chorlton Street. From 8/1/80 operation was solely by SYPTE until the service was withdrawn after operation on 25/10/86.. Corrections and clarifications welcomed.
  15. In preparedness' for the South Yorkshire Transport Trust Open Day on Sunday I have been updating my lists of surviving buses with a local connection. Having now found away to convert and save these in a compatible format for this forum I can now make these available. The first can be found below and lists the survivors that were once in the fleets of Sheffield Transport Department / Joint Omnibus Committee,
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