Jump to content

Luftwaffe planes in Sheffield?


Recommended Posts

I wonder if anyone can shed light on these two post cards?

I know the Messerchmitt 109 is in Sheffield-Barkers pool.

Is the Hienkel 111 also pictured in Sheffield? Whats the story?.

I inherited them both together.

Thanks

Mike

The pic below shows the 109 being placed in position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Mike

I don't know about the Heinkel, but the 109 was shipped in for a fund and morale raising drive.

What a pity my dad is no longer alive to see these pictures.

He told me the story of the ME-109 years ago about how it had been shot down "somewhere over England"

(Probably down south where most of the Battle of Britain action was, and within range of a small fighter aircraft)

The aircraft was brought back to Sheffield and put on display in Barkers Pool as some sort of victorious war trophy.

It would certainly boost the moral of a local population recently devastated by being blitzed and bombed as it was sending the message that we could beat the luftwaffe and were doing.

Dad said that in Barkers Pool around this display were collections of money for "Wings for Victory", raising cash to build more Spitfires to continue the fight against the Luftwaffe.

Don't know much about the Heinkel though, although it is possible that this could have been downed closer to Sheffield than the Messerschmidt ever flew.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First of all, many thanks to Mike for posting those pictures, and sending me copies in response to my thread over on the Sheffield Forum. I showed the pictures to my Dad, but he has no idea where the Heinkel bomber is located. He thinks the picture of the Messerschmitt (the single engined fighter), is indeed taken in Sheffield, in Barkers Pool. He thinks it is Burgess Street in the Background.

I'm building a model of this aircraft, and, from the little research I've done, I have come up with this info, some of which came from Luftwaffe experts on the "Britmodeller" forum:

It is a Messerschmitt Bf 109-E4 "White 5" of the JG 53 "Ace of Spades" squadron.

It was shot down over Margate, Kent on 6th September 1940. The pilot was Unteroffizier Hans-Georg Schulte. Schulte took off at 17.30 hrs on a freelance patrol. He was flying with four other Bf109's at a height of 16,500 ft when it was shot down by fighters at 18.50 hrs. The pilot tried to land at Manston aerodrome, but crashed near Vincents Farm, Manston at 18.30hrs. The official crash report noted:

"Markings 5+I in white. White cowling, spinner and rudder. Camouflage mottled light and dark green and grey. Thick red band around cowling painted out. Aircraft constructed by Erla, work nr.1506 dated 1940. Fitted with DB 601/A engine. Mercedes Benz work nr.62611. Cause of crash uncertain. One wing buckled, otherwise condition of aircraft fair. Standard armament and bulkhead together with pilot's head shield standard".

Schulte was credited with eight air-to-air combat victories, the eigth and final one was a Spitfire, probably shot down immediately before he was himself forced to land at Vincents Farm:

14/05/40 1 x M.406

21/05/40 1 x Curtis

04/06/40 1 x Potez

07/06/40 1 x M 406

13/08/40 1 x Hurricane

01/09/40 1 x Hurricane

05/09/40 1 x Spitfire

06/09/40 1 x Spitfire

Notice the swastika on the tail fin has been painted out. That was reportedly because the Wing Commander, Hans-Jürgen Erdmann von Cramon-Taubadel married a girl who, in Goering's opinion, was not suitable (Jewish). He therefore ordered the unit to remove their "Ace of Spades" mascot from the cowlings of their Messerschmitts and paint a red band around the noses of their aircraft as a mark of shame. When Cramon-Taubadel was replaced, the "Ace of Spades" mascot was reinstated, but, in response to this, the unit overpainted the swastikas of their aircraft in protest.

This photo is taken in Barker's Pool, Sheffield. It was displayed in aid of the Sheffield Newspapers War Fund ("Salute the Airmen")? Which was some kind of fundraising effort where you could buy a sticker and put it on the aircraft). As a 10 year old boy, my Dad was shown around it.

Here's the aircraft after crash landing at Vincents Farm.

The pilot, Schulte, is second from the left, looking at the camera. His aircraft "White 5" is in the background. I wonder what happened to him?

Here's "White 5" in a formation.

Here's the aircraft before the "Ace of Spades" emblem was painted out.

And finally a computer simulation of the aircraft.

Any other information or corrections to the above gratefully accepted.

Cheers,

Dr_GN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thnaks guys, but without the help of people like Mike (the O/P) and others, I couldn't have got as much information. Even so, I think it's probably the most information on this particular plane/event in one place! The possible exception is a guy called "Dave" over on the Britmodeller forum, who has original photographs of it, and has seen surviving bits of it in a private collection. Feel free to look through this thread (I have the same username) :

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=44278

Apparently my Dad's pal got to sit in the aircraft, and has two postcards of it (I'll give him a call tonight and see if he still has them).

Any more info greatly appreciated!

Fantastic website by the way. I didn't know it existed until Mike posted about it on Sheffield Forum.

Cheers,

Dr_GN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The original pic is certainly Barkers Pool, you can make out the east end of the front of the City Hall where the box office is now, top left in the background.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The original pic is certainly Barkers Pool, you can make out the east end of the front of the City Hall where the box office is now, top left in the background.

Mike,

I think both '109 pictures are in Barker's Pool. My Dad said the street behind the aircraft (in Mikes picture) was Burgess Street, and that there was a garage on it. Since I have looked at the full-size scan, I can now see the words "Car Showroom" and "City Garage" on one of the buildings, so this ties in nicely with what he thought. My Dad was at the Grammer School behind the City Hall at the time, and remembers buying a stamp, which he could then stick on the fuselage. At that time, people were not allowed to sit in the aircraft, but this must have changed.

Cheers,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike,

I think both '109 pictures are in Barker's Pool. My Dad said the street behind the aircraft (in Mikes picture) was Burgess Street, and that there was a garage on it. Since I have looked at the full-size scan, I can now see the words "Car Showroom" and "City Garage" on one of the buildings, so this ties in nicely with what he thought. My Dad was at the Grammer School behind the City Hall at the time, and remembers buying a stamp, which he could then stick on the fuselage. At that time, people were not allowed to sit in the aircraft, but this must have changed.

Cheers,

I agree,

both of the aircraft were positioned in the car pak at the top of Burgess Street

(former site of the Albert Hall, burnt down 14/06/37)

Link to picturesheffield

Link to O/S map #02

Oh, and welcome to the site dr_gn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the efforts, I reckon in the 109 , in situ, shot, it shows the side door to the Guamont, I remember using it.

Some years ago there was a cockpit section on display at Kelham Island Museum. It was for training in Spain where they used these bombers up to the 1960,s. (some with spitfire engines!)I have tried to find out about this cockpit specimen but no luck as yet.

I remember thinking how small it was and not like my Airfix notion.

All we need to do now is find out which bomber it was, who flew it, where it crashed, and the life stories of the crew.

OVER TO YOU DOCTOR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is the 109 on the "crane" - that's looking towards the edge City Hall and the rear of the "grand" hotel isn't it?

Yes. This picture was in "The Aeroplane" magazine back in about 2006. It was in the 'mystery aircraft' (or whatever) section, and they were asking if anyone knew where it was. The Editor suggested it was somewhere in Eastern Europe, judging by the 'Policemen" and the look of the buildings and lamp posts! My Dad immediately recognised it as Sheffield City Hall.

Cheers,

Dr_GN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree,

both of the aircraft were positioned in the car pak at the top of Burgess Street

(former site of the Albert Hall, burnt down 14/06/37)

Link to picturesheffield

Link to O/S map #02

Oh, and welcome to the site dr_gn

Thanks for all the efforts, I reckon in the 109 , in situ, shot, it shows the side door to the Guamont, I remember using it.

Some years ago there was a cockpit section on display at Kelham Island Museum. It was for training in Spain where they used these bombers up to the 1960,s. (some with spitfire engines!)I have tried to find out about this cockpit specimen but no luck as yet.

I remember thinking how small it was and not like my Airfix notion.

All we need to do now is find out which bomber it was, who flew it, where it crashed, and the life stories of the crew.

OVER TO YOU DOCTOR

Mike, Steve,

That's great: Exactly where my Dad said it was.

The strange thing is my Dad can't remember seeing the Heinkel. Do you have any more info on this?

There were indeed Spanish Rolls-Royce powered derivatives of both the Heinkel 111 (called the Casa 2.111) and the Messerschmitt Bf109 (called the Hispano Buchon):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CASA_2.111

http://www.arc-duxford.co.uk/buchon.htm

I'll have to try and find out some more about the Heinkel...does anyone have any ideas of where to start?

Cheers,

Dr_GN

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mike,

I think both '109 pictures are in Barker's Pool. My Dad said the street behind the aircraft (in Mikes picture) was Burgess Street, and that there was a garage on it. Since I have looked at the full-size scan, I can now see the words "Car Showroom" and "City Garage" on one of the buildings, so this ties in nicely with what he thought. My Dad was at the Grammer School behind the City Hall at the time, and remembers buying a stamp, which he could then stick on the fuselage. At that time, people were not allowed to sit in the aircraft, but this must have changed.

Cheers,

My dad told me you could sit in the aircraft but he never got the chance to do so.

He said there was a charge for this, I can't remember if he said it was 3d or 6d but again the money raised was for the "wings for victory" campaign

Likewise, the buying of stamps to put on the fuselage, which he never mentioned to me, appears to be a similar way of raising money for the war effort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is a Messerschmitt Bf 109-E4 "White 5" of the JG 53 "Ace of Spades" squadron.

It was shot down over Margate, Kent on 6th September 1940. The pilot was Unteroffizier Hans-Georg Schulte. Schulte took off at 17.30 hrs on a freelance patrol. He was flying with four other Bf109's at a height of 16,500 ft when it was shot down by fighters at 18.50 hrs. The pilot tried to land at Manston aerodrome, but crashed near Vincents Farm, Manston at 18.30hrs. The official crash report noted:

"Markings 5+I in white. White cowling, spinner and rudder. Camouflage mottled light and dark green and grey. Thick red band around cowling painted out. Aircraft constructed by Erla, work nr.1506 dated 1940. Fitted with DB 601/A engine. Mercedes Benz work nr.62611. Cause of crash uncertain. One wing buckled, otherwise condition of aircraft fair. Standard armament and bulkhead together with pilot's head shield standard".

Schulte was credited with eight air-to-air combat victories, the eigth and final one was a Spitfire, probably shot down immediately before he was himself forced to land at Vincents Farm:

Dr_GN.

The report and pictures indicate that the pilot, Unteroffizer Schulte, survived the crash landing relatively unscaithed.

It is likely that he was taken prisoner of war and would be interred in a POW campeither in Britain or in a British Commonwealth territory (eg Canada, as in the film "The one that got away"). After the war he would most likely have been released and repatriated back to Germany, if he was from the west, or may have chose not to go home if he was from the east which was now under Communist control.

As a high scoring German ace pilot it would be interesting to find out what did happen to him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dad told me you could sit in the aircraft but he never got the chance to do so.

He said there was a charge for this, I can't remember if he said it was 3d or 6d but again the money raised was for the "wings for victory" campaign

Likewise, the buying of stamps to put on the fuselage, which he never mentioned to me, appears to be a similar way of raising money for the war effort.

Interesting you mention the charge: I just put the 'phone down after chatting with my uncle Tony (who sat in the Messerschmitt). He clearly remembers it costing 6d.

Strangely, he also witnessed the demise of the Endcliffe Park B-17, or at least the final few seconds before impact. He was at a Birthday Party on Tullibardine Road. Said it came in very low from the South West, smoking engines, then out of sight followed shortly after by a large bang. FWIW he thought it was very unlikely that the piolt had any control of where it ended up. He knows another eyewitness who said it was in a stalled condition, and rolled out of the sky into the woods.

You are quite right that the pilot was apparently uninjured, there was an aircrew interrogation report. It's not out of the question that he's still alive.

Cheers,

Dr_GN.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heinkel mystery- spent hours on this. No luck.

Cant understand why a plane in this condition has not been photographed, remarked upon before. I have seen pics of loads that are in bits. It looks like the cockpit area is the first to go on impact.

Possible clues ?

The "Doc" seems to think the white nose cones may help with ID.

I have had my magnifier on the pic. The coloured white edged triangle on the side gives 87

The triangle on the prop, "VDM"

The buildings in the background are "Industrial types". Large, tall, large skylight, large chimney stack.

It obviously didn,t crash there.

The cards are identical in every way and likely bought at the same place.

Whilst the 109 has all the trappings of an exibit the Heinkel doesn,t, save for some steps and the cover.

Two civilians just off shot.

Time wise, it has to be in the UK.

It is not riddled with bullet holes. The cockpit and other wing could have been?

Prop not turning on landing?

Starboard wing maybe laid on the ground along side

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heinkel mystery- spent hours on this. No luck.

Possible clues ?

I have had my magnifier on the pic. The coloured white edged triangle on the side gives 87

The triangle on the prop, "VDM"

Prop not turning on landing?

Mike

Mike,

Well, after a bit of digging, it looks like it's a Heinkel He111 type H-1.

The triangle on the side is just to indicate the type of fuel used, and is common to many Luftwaffe aircraft (in this case, the number "87" means 87 octane B4 aviation gasoline).

As you probably guessed, VDM is the propeller manufacturer.

And yes it looks like the prop wasn't turning when it crashed.

The size of the tent makes me think the stbd wing is in place.

Really, all we have to go on is the aircraft type, the general camoflague pattern, the light coloured spinners and the darker (possibly red?) number (7?) on the fuselage.

Cheers,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Strangely, he also witnessed the demise of the Endcliffe Park B-17, or at least the final few seconds before impact. He was at a Birthday Party on Tullibardine Road. Said it came in very low from the South West, smoking engines, then out of sight followed shortly after by a large bang. FWIW he thought it was very unlikely that the piolt had any control of where it ended up. He knows another eyewitness who said it was in a stalled condition, and rolled out of the sky into the woods.
That is really interesting, I never knew which way it came in, always assumed it had come in from the east for some reason. Sounds like he had limited control then. Probably very little air speed with engines burning like that, so difficult to control but enough to pull the nose up on the other side of the valley. Sounds like it either went too high and stalled, or the pilot deliberately stalled it to prevent it flying on into the houses beyond, of which he would have had a good view as he came in. It's how you land gliders but with less severe consequences as you might expect.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is really interesting, I never knew which way it came in, always assumed it had come in from the east for some reason. Sounds like he had limited control then. Probably very little air speed with engines burning like that, so difficult to control but enough to pull the nose up on the other side of the valley. Sounds like it either went too high and stalled, or the pilot deliberately stalled it to prevent it flying on into the houses beyond, of which he would have had a good view as he came in. It's how you land gliders but with less severe consequences as you might expect.

I'm sure if Tony went back to Tullibardine he'd be able to show exactly where he saw it, and from that perhaps a more accurate heading could be estimated. If I can quote from "Peakland Air crashes" by Pat Cunningham, it appears to confirm my uncles story:

"Wintess accounts make it quite clear that the aircraft had gone totally beyond control, both rolling and gyrating before diving heavily into the ground. But, perhaps inevitably, the years have brought embellishments, notably one that has first Lieuteneant Krieghauser attempting to avoid children playing on the football ground."

Tony mentioned one anecdote (not witnessed or necessarily believed by him) that the plane dropped a rescue dinghy onto the park, in an attempt to scare people away, but it had the opposite effect.

Of course, what happened *before* it went totally out of control isn't recorded, but from what I was told it just flew over at low level and went in.

IMHO, whatever the truth is, they all died as heroes, and don't need any further legend applied to their story.

To go O/T again for a minute (sorry), did you know that in the '50's, and American fighter jet crashed into Lodge Moor hospital, killing some patients? The pilot had ejected over, I think, Hathersage, after apparently running low on fuel in thick fog, but the jet flew on and wiped out a hospital ward. I'd never heard that one before I read the aforementioned book.

Sorry if all this seems a bit odd, but I find these aircraft stories fascinating for some reason.

Cheers,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To go O/T again for a minute (sorry), did you know that in the '50's, and American fighter jet crashed into Lodge Moor hospital, killing some patients? The pilot had ejected over, I think, Hathersage, after apparently running low on fuel in thick fog, but the jet flew on and wiped out a hospital ward. I'd never heard that one before I read the aforementioned book.

Sorry if all this seems a bit odd, but I find these aircraft stories fascinating for some reason.

Cheers,

Jet Crash on Hospital - Lodge Moor Sheffield 9th December 1955

Link to .. www.chrishobbs.com/lodgemoor1955.

Link to .. hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1955

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting you mention the charge: I just put the 'phone down after chatting with my uncle Tony (who sat in the Messerschmitt). He clearly remembers it costing 6d.

You are quite right that the pilot was apparently uninjured, there was an aircrew interrogation report. It's not out of the question that he's still alive.

Cheers,

Dr_GN.

Thanks for that addition Dr-GN, I couldn't remember if he had said 3d or 6d, so it must have been 6d.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My dad told me you could sit in the aircraft but he never got the chance to do so.

He said there was a charge for this, I can't remember if he said it was 3d or 6d but again the money raised was for the "wings for victory" campaign

Likewise, the buying of stamps to put on the fuselage, which he never mentioned to me, appears to be a similar way of raising money for the war effort.

Wings For Victory, and raising money for the war effort.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...