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Dunkirk


Thorntons girl

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I have just watched the film, Dunkirk, it is so dramatic and heart rendering and scary.

What those poor soldiers went through, lots of them boys.

Has anyone got a family involved in the evacuation of Dunkirk, I would love to hear of some experiences.

These are the true heroes of the war.

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The country saw a miracle happen...and, somehow,  we turned a disaster of immense proportions into a victory. A relation of mine ...a bricklayer by trade...volunteered and spent almost a year carrying out his trade by building pill boxes and the like in northern France. He never fired a shot in anger was told to retreat and was evacuated along with the rest from the beaches of Dunkirk.

 

 

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 iI should add that he was not only thankful for his escape but quite bitter at what he saw as the abject failure of the Generals to see what the Germans were up to. It should be remembered that apart from artillery the French and British outnumbered the Germans in almost everything. The real heroes were those who stayed behind in the rear guard and fought the Germans in an attempt to stem their advance...not least the 30,000 French at Amiens...who get not a mention in the film...nor the 300,000 French soldiers who were killed in the campaign.

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There is so much to this story we dont know about and which is not mentioned/

Yes the ones who stayed behind were true heroes, it must have been horrific whether you left the beach or stayed.

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Everything is there if you wish to find out. I have spent a lifetime reading about the French campaign of 1939-40 and still learn more. I haven't seen the film but I understand some critics have panned it for its lack of context...How did the British Army come to be in such a position? Why did we not better co-ordinate our actions with the much stronger French and, of course where was the RAF ( that's been answered but many survivors criticised them for not being seen more over the beaches) A telling remark I heard from a former infantry Lieutenant , with whom I worked in the 1960s, was that he was more scared with being up to his neck in water than he ever was with aerial bombardment or German artillery fire... He went on to fight in North Africa and later on in the D Day landings.

 

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The film was very good because it made you feel like you were experiencing it with the actors, in the air, the sea and on.the beaches

There wasnt much dialogue or individual stories, but it was powerful

The film did show not enough RAF planes were about to help

I bet the soldiers would have preferred to be on the beaches because from the film most of the official rescue boats were sunk..

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There were some 700 small boats used in the evacuation and they rescued just 5% of those who made it back to the UK.

 The vast majority of those on the beach were evacuated by RN vessels and by other large ships requisitioned by the Admiralty....These added up to a total of 220 ships .Of the major naval vessels involved 6 RN destroyers and 3 French destroyers were sunk as well as 9 requisitioned large vessels. Total losses of all types amounted to 243 vessels.

The RAF shot down well over 200 Luftwaffe aircraft for the loss of just over 100 of their own*. They fought inland , aiming to stop the Luftwaffe before they could reach the beaches.( as , indeed during the Battle of Britain they attempted to stop the Luftwaffe before they could reach their target) The Spitfire could fire for just 17 seconds before its ammunition was expended... so tales of pilots shooting down several aircraft in one sortie are perhaps a little far fetched or the pilot was lucky.

The sea conditions were generally good and soldiers queueing on the Mole were not affected on embarkation by tidal conditions.

Had all the ships been sunk then we never would have rescued the 338,000 we did and RAF claims have been disputed by some authorities.

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Local lad, the late Albert Winter, sometime President of Sheffield Chamber of Commerce, in his book, " Behind the Wire", wrote of his experiences in the retreat and evacuation from Dunkirk...If you can get a copy it's well worth reading.

 

Propagator Press, 2005, ISBN 86029 804 4

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3 hours ago, lysander said:

Local lad, the late Albert Winter, sometime President of Sheffield Chamber of Commerce, in his book, " Behind the Wire", wrote of his experiences in the retreat and evacuation from Dunkirk...If you can get a copy it's well worth reading.

 

Propagator Press, 2005, ISBN 86029 804 4

Thanks Lysander I will look for a copy, there is so much I dont know and want to know. I love to hear of personal experiences, the real stories of the war.

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Also "The Epic of Dunkirk" by E. Keble Chatterton. First published in November 1940 - barely six months after the event. My copy (5th reprint Feb. 1941) contains 31 photographs and many moving experiences from the men who escaped from France. In the appendix it states that over 600 vessels were requisitioned to take part in the evacuation,  however of this number 200 were found unsuitable for the Dunkirk operations so the actual number sent across the channel amounted to approx. 400. The appendix names 420 vessels, not including Royal Navy and RNLI  boats.

Just a couple of snippets from the book - Commander C.H. Lightoller RNR who survived the sinking of the Titanic, served afloat during the 1914-18 war then in retirement took his 58 foot motor cruiser 'Sundowner' across the channel and rescued 150 men - 4 times the permissible load.

Among the 335, 000 men rescued there were 2 girls! Elaine Madden 17, daughter of a British gardener employed by the War Graves Commission at Poperinghe and her aunty, Simone Duponselle aged 20 whose mother kept the Palace Hotel in the Rue d'Ypres, Poperinghe. Theirs is an amazing story of survival, finally being allowed to mingle with the crowd wearing tin hats and tunics when boarding a steamer in the harbour at Dunkirk. The crisis came when they had to climb down an iron ladder and an observant soldier remembering the Fifth Columnists, recognised the female legs and declared loudly "Woman coming aboard!" They eventually landed safely in England.

The book is full of stories like these and well worth the effort to obtain a copy.

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On ‎25‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 21:42, Thorntons girl said:

There is so much to this story we dont know about and which is not mentioned/

Yes the ones who stayed behind were true heroes, it must have been horrific whether you left the beach or stayed.

Just sorting out my Father in laws family history and some of the artifacts he kept. I have  his belt he wore at Dunkirk and also interestingly a typed memo he received after he was billeted in Chesterfield  telling him not to speak of what he saw at Dunkirk so as not to demoralise the civilians, and he never did to me anyway. I was however told ( by my Mother in law) that when he came home in the uniform he escaped in he was so dishevelled  she didn't recognise him.

He went on to be part of the Dunkirk Veterans Association.

As an aside  he was the grandson of James Stubbs  artificial limb maker as mentioned in the  'Great Jobs thread I have just replied to. 

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Hubert H M Sugg, owner of Sheffield's Sugg Sports was awarded his MC as a Captain with 60 A Field Reg  at Dunkirk

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Shiregreen Congregational Church, along with many other churches ,was used to billet a few Dunkirk survivors for a short while. The Church had seen additional toilets and washing facilities built before the outbreak of war and a few months after Dunkirk was used as a welfare centre... post Blitz.

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On 8/25/2017 at 18:35, Boxingday79 said:

Just sorting out my Father in laws family history and some of the artifacts he kept. I have  his belt he wore at Dunkirk and also interestingly a typed memo he received after he was billeted in Chesterfield  telling him not to speak of what he saw at Dunkirk so as not to demoralise the civilians, and he never did to me anyway. I was however told ( by my Mother in law) that when he came home in the uniform he escaped in he was so dishevelled  she didn't recognise him.

He went on to be part of the Dunkirk Veterans Association.

As an aside  he was the grandson of James Stubbs  artificial limb maker as mentioned in the  'Great Jobs thread I have just replied to. 

A true hero, thanks for sharing.

So many of the boys who came home must have been too traumatised to speak of their ordeal.

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Whatever the cinema has portrayed in various ways, ( always remember that they’re not in the business of making documentaries and if it’s facts we want, we shouldn’t watch Hollywood products or even those made on a deserted Redcar beach), the fact is that our forces with ad hoc support but principally the Royal Navy, saved our biggest asset, manpower and the basis of a re-inflated Army which went on to  utilise to win a World War, fought on a number of fronts requiring serious adaptation and skill. Failing in that mass rescue doesn’t bear much thought as it would have had MASSIVE implications for the Nations very survival - until the US joined us in 1942.

However, just  how we came to be in that position attracts more critical scrutiny. We were being pursued  and cornered by forces developed and trained from our own doctrines, thought out and propounded, years before  by sometimes very junior (Liddell Hart) but cerebral, British  officers including John Fuller! Indeed, I believe it was the very  General who masterminded the pursuit to eventual evacuation , Erwin Rommel, who actually  stated the view that ‘the British write the best doctrine in the World,  it’s fortunate that their officers don't read it’. Effective use of armoured formations, the need for infantry to keep up with them by means of similarly mobile, mechanised, transport; flexibility for situations which are regularly changing - again, a phenomenon  recognised and commented upon, many years before, by another, senior German who observed that ‘no plan survives contact with enemy’. The fact is that  The German Forces of The Blitzkrieg weren’t supermen, they just knew their trade and kept that advantage until The British eventually, started to realise just how far behind they were in military thinking. 
My uncle was an ordinary (Sheffield TA) soldier who, as we know, with many others, went through the Dunkirk crisis, was evacuated, shaken by the experience but rested and re-kitted went back to his job which took him to more  terrors and dangers  but then in North Africa and Italy.

Frightening, edge of of the seat stuff, the likes of which, fiction simply could not convey to those not involved.

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