Where Is This Birth Certificate?

[KevinB]

I am trying to find a record of birth and then a birth certificate for Elizabeth Ann Brotherhood born 1869/1868 in Sutton in Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. She was one of my ancestors.

In the 1891 census she, and her daughter, Mary Elizabeth (14 weeks old) were boarders with Henry and Elizabeth Derrick at 63 Newcastle Street, Hucknall under Huthwaite (now just Huthwaite), Sutton in Ashfield. Thomas Harrison is also named as a boarder.

I have searched the free BMD on ancestry, trying such combinations as Elizabeth Brotherhood, Elizabeth A Brotherhood, Elizabeth Ann Brotherhood and all three combinations using Brotherwood (which apparently is where Brotherhood originates) instead of Brotherhood but to no avail.

What am I doing wrong?

[duckweed]

My thought is that place of birth may be wrong? I have a number of ancestors who were born away from home due to where the family was at the time. There is an Eliza Ann of correct date but born in Tonbridge Kent. Any chance family could have been temporarily away? I have an ancestor that was born in Bedfordshire but baptised in Staffordshire where the Grandparents lived and where the family went back to. Census records were pretty confusing for the ancestor as both places were down as birthplace on different census records.

[johnm]

I have the baptism records for Notts. Can't find your Elizabeth on it though. There are Brotherhood family baptisms around that time at St Stephen's, Sneinton & St Mary's , Eastwood. If you have names of any of Elizabeth's siblings I can look for them.

John

[KevinB]

My thought is that place of birth may be wrong? I have a number of ancestors who were born away from home due to where the family was at the time. There is an Eliza Ann of correct date but born in Tonbridge Kent. Any chance family could have been temporarily away? I have an ancestor that was born in Bedfordshire but baptised in Staffordshire where the Grandparents lived and where the family went back to. Census records were pretty confusing for the ancestor as both places were down as birthplace on different census records.

Yes this is possibility. I have little evidence other than that which I have already stated.

[KevinB]

I have the baptism records for Notts. Can't find your Elizabeth on it though. There are Brotherhood family baptisms around that time at St Stephen's, Sneinton & St Mary's , Eastwood. If you have names of any of Elizabeth's siblings I can look for them.

John

The information I have supplied comes from the 1891 census. I can say that in Dec1890 Elizabeth Ann Brotherhood was a patient in the Mansfield Union Workhouse infirmary where she gave birth to Mary Elizabeth Brotherhood on the 28th Dec1890. Mary was my grandmother. She left the infirmary on the 19th Jan 1891 and must have been resident at Newcastle Street shortly afterwards.

Beyond that I know nothing about Elizabeth Ann Brotherhood.

[SteveHB]

Not an answer, but I came across this ..

Full article m a brotherhood.pdf

[Unitedite Returns]

In England and Wales, birth registration with the state began on 1 July 1837, but registration did not become compulsory until 1875. Due to the fact that your ancestors would have incurred two separate costs, one for baptism and one for registration of birth, they like a lot of people, tended only to opt for one of the two.

I can also tell you, from personal experience, that the national registration indexes are not fully accurate, [afterall, they have been transcribed from original local documents twice, once in the nineteenth century, and more recently for the BMD indexes], and people do get ommitted. It therefore might be worthwhile enquiring directly from the relevant local registry office. A number of my Sheffield ancestors exist in the Sheffield Registry Records, but not in the National BMD database, or even at the GRO.

If it helps, the following Brotherhoods were baptised at Sneinton. You might want to see if you can find the corresponding BMD registrations for them.

County Nottinghamshire Nottinghamshire Nottinghamshire

Place Sneinton Sneinton Sneinton

Church St Stephen St Stephen St Stephen

RegisterNumber

DateOfBirth

BaptismDate 25 Nov 1868 25 Nov 1868 04 Aug 1872

Forename Arthur George Francis James George James

Sex M M M

FatherForename George George Sarah

MotherForename Ann Ann Annie

FatherSurname BROTHERHOOD BROTHERHOOD BROTHERHOOD

MotherSurname

Abode Byron St Byron St Colton Terr

FatherOccupation FWK FWK Joiner

Notes

FileNumber 16440 16440 16452

[KevinB]

In England and Wales, birth registration with the state began on 1 July 1837, but registration did not become compulsory until 1875. Due to the fact that your ancestors would have incurred two separate costs, one for baptism and one for registration of birth, they like a lot of people, tended only to opt for one of the two.I can also tell you, from personal experience, that the national registration indexes are not fully accurate, [afterall, they have been transcribed from original local documents twice, once in the nineteenth century, and more recently for the BMD indexes], and people do get ommitted. It therefore might be worthwhile enquiring directly from the relevant local registry office. A number of my Sheffield ancestors exist in the Sheffield Registry Records, but not in the National BMD database, or even at the GRO.If it helps, the following Brotherhoods were baptised at Sneinton. You might want to see if you can find the corresponding BMD registrations for them.County Nottinghamshire Nottinghamshire NottinghamshirePlace Sneinton Sneinton SneintonChurch St Stephen St Stephen St StephenRegisterNumberDateOfBirthBaptismDate 25 Nov 1868 25 Nov 1868 04 Aug 1872Forename Arthur George Francis James George JamesSex M M MFatherForename George George SarahMotherForename Ann Ann AnnieFatherSurname BROTHERHOOD BROTHERHOOD BROTHERHOODMotherSurnameAbode Byron St Byron St Colton TerrFatherOccupation FWK FWK JoinerNotesFileNumber 16440 16440 16452

Thanks for that. I find the information about birth registration/baptism really useful as it may explain why I cannot find records of entry in the BMD index for other ancestors born after 1837 but before 1875.

I will see what I can find out about the Brotherhoods from the information you supplied and post what I can find.

Many thanks for all the help and suggestions.

[KevinB]

Occupation of father FWK FWK JoinerNotesFileNumber 16440 16440 16452

Does FWK mean farmworker?

[Lyn 1]

Could mean Framework knitter a common occupation in Notts/Derbyshire.

Lyn

[KevinB]

Could mean Framework knitter a common occupation in Notts/Derbyshire.

Lyn

Thanks! One of the liners of research I recieved has led me to a George Brotherhood of Sneinton who was a Lacemaker. Not that far removed from a Framework knitter?

[Lyn 1]

Some of mine were framework knitters in Melbourne Derbyshire. A lovely place for a day out. Been trying to paste a piece in about framework knitting and it just will not work - will try and email you instead.

Lyn

[Edmund]

Another Sneinton connection:

In February 1885 Elizabeth Brotherhood was found guilty of stealing lace and fined 20s. or 14 days hard labour. The lace belonged to Messrs Thos. Adams and Co of Stoney street (Nottingham). One of the witnesses was Maria Porter who lived at Sneinton Elements and used to regularly give Elizabeth work.

[KevinB]

Another Sneinton connection:

In February 1885 Elizabeth Brotherhood was found guilty of stealing lace and fined 20s. or 14 days hard labour. The lace belonged to Messrs Thos. Adams and Co of Stoney street (Nottingham). One of the witnesses was Maria Porter who lived at Sneinton Elements and used to regularly give Elizabeth work.

That is amazing!!! I would not be at all surprised if that Elizabeth A is the same one I am seeking. Where did you find this information please?

[Lyn 1]

Left a private message for you Kevin.
Lyn

[KevinB]

I have the baptism records for Notts. Can't find your Elizabeth on it though. There are Brotherhood family baptisms around that time at St Stephen's, Sneinton & St Mary's , Eastwood. If you have names of any of Elizabeth's siblings I can look for them.

John

I don't know if Elizabeth had any siblings. I do know that as well as giving birth to Mary Elizabeth in 1890, there was a n Arthur James and a Francis James twins, and possibly a George James but I think he is a different family. All have parents named George and Ann Brotherhood.

Baptism dates for the twins is 25 th Nov. 1868. St. Stephens church,

Hope that helps!

[Edmund]

That is amazing!!! I would not be at all surprised if that Elizabeth A is the same one I am seeking. Where did you find this information please?

The full article is here:

[KevinB]

The full article is here:

Stealing Lace 1885.png

I think this is my Elizabeth. Reason? How many Elizabeth Brotherhoods were there in Sneinton at that time?

[johnm]

I don't know if Elizabeth had any siblings. I do know that as well as giving birth to Mary Elizabeth in 1890, there was a n Arthur James and a Francis James twins, and possibly a George James but I think he is a different family. All have parents named George and Ann Brotherhood.

Baptism dates for the twins is 25 th Nov. 1868. St. Stephens church,

Hope that helps!

According to the baptism records I have, Arthur was Arthur George not Arthur James & he & Francis James were baptised 25 Nov 1868 at St Stephen's. Sneinton. This is confirmed by BMD records.

However according to FreeBMD they were not twins. Francis' birth was registered Dec qtr 1865 & Arthur's June qtr 1867. It was quite common for parents to wait to have children baptised until there were 2 or more as apparently it was cheaper to have a "job lot" done.

John

[KevinB]

Not an answer, but I came across this ..25-01-1867.jpgFull article m a brotherhood.pdf

This might be more important than you think. Do you have the full article please?

[KevinB]

It's ok, I have the full article thanks.