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Tracing A Ww1 Soldier


KevinB

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I have been researching my family history and would like to find out more about my grandfather's role in WW1. I have tried Ancestry.com without success. His name was John Walter Bird, born 19/11/1890 and in 1911 he wax living at 216 Earsham Street. He enlisted with the 4th Hallamshire Rifles which I think became the Yorks and Lancs Regiment.

If anyone has ideas as to where else I might look for his war record I would greatly appreciate it.

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Many service records were destroyed by fire in the 2nd World War so it is unsurprising that you cannot find his service record. The fact that he was not eligible for the Star means that he entered the war after the end of 1915. A visit to the National Archives at Kew would allow you to look at the medal roll (those numbers next to Victory show where on the Y & L roll he is located) and it might even give you his battalion. Regarding his regiment are you thinking that he was a member of the Territorial unit the Hallamshires who were the 1/4th and 2/4th battalions? If so where did you get that information from?

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Ok, after a little more research the soldiers number in the medal card indicates a post 1917 territorial number. That number was allocated to the 4th battalion York & Lancaster regiment.

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Thank you so much!

I need to read and think about what you said so I'll respond more fully in a day or so.

Regards

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I have some further information and pictures. I hope they are of some help.

I can confirm that after the war JW Bird was indeed a member of the TA. My 89 year old mother remebers her father going off on weekend camps with the TA. I don't know if he was a member of the TA before the war but photo 1 shows a young JW Bird in uniform with the caption "4th Battalion Hallamshire Rifles". I had always assumed that this photo was taken immediately before he was called up but it could have been earlier. He was 24 in 1914. How old is the young man in the photo, is it pre-war, and were the Hallamshire Rifles part of the TA?

Photo 2 shows the same man many years later and photo 3 is a close up of his medals. Clearly, 5 medals are shown. I believe the first 3 from left to right are the 1914/15 Star, a war medal and a victory medal ( pip, squeak and Wilfred as I believe they were affectionately known)There is a clear descrepency here as the record you have pulled up does not mention a Star medal but he had one.

The 4th and 5th medals are not his and I think are WW2 medals. I think the 4th medal was a War Medal given to servicemen and woman in the 39-45 period. He did not fight in WW2 but his son also called John Walter, known as Jack did. Sadly, the war for him ended on 28th Oct 1942 when he was killed in action at El Alamein. I cannot identify the 5th medal.

He must have worn those medals with much sadness but also with a feeling of immense pride when the photo was taken.The medals no longer exist as they were intered with my grandfather when he died.

Also clearly shown is the badge of the Yorks and Lancs Regiment.

I hope all this helps you in assissting my search.

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We do appear to have a bit of a discrepancy here don't we. Of course there is no guarantee that the medal card posted by Stuart is the one belonging to your John Walter Bird. However, I would be surprised if that isn't his card. The reasons I have for this are the strong TA ties your man has. The 'Hallamshire Rifles' were a territorial unit but were not officially called that after the Boer War, except perhaps informally as appears to be the case here. They were the 4th (Hallamshire) Battalion of which there were two lines 1/4th and 2/4th. The man on the medal card has a number that, as I said, was reallocated in 1917 but the fact that it is a low 200000 number, a friend has informed me, means that he would originally have joined the territorials between 1908 and 1910. More evidence for a territorial connection is that there is a reference to the Territorial Eficiency medal on the medal card. This is the medal that is being worn on the far right of the photograph, the one you couldn't identify. The absence of a 14-15 star on his medal card is a puzzle but mistakes were not uncommon and he clearly received his correct medal entitlement at some point. However, it is still somewhat troubling that such a mistake has been made.

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Thank you so much for your efforts! I would agree entirely with your comments about the medal card details. That card belongs to the JWBird I am seeking information on. The fact that the star medal is not listed does not surprise me. If you have experience of searching old records as I am sure you have, then you will know that mistakes are regretably common but if we look at the bigger picture, everything else fits. The regiment is correct and JW Bird was only ever a private, and the territorial efficiency medal all fit. This is our man!

I have several questions please.

1) was there a minimum age to join the TA in the 1908-1910 period?

2) JW Bird would have been 20 in 1910. Is there a possibility that he fought in the Boer War? I have searched records and a J W Bird at Burger Camp is listed. Could this be him? To open the record will cost me around £8 and since I am not sure if this is him I am reluctant to spend the money without more searching. Can you recommend a good site to search the Boer War?

3) what was a Territorial Efficiency medal?

4) what does the writing at the side of the Victory Medal entry mean?

5) I would like to know where he saw action in WW1. I know that many records were destroyed in WW2 but are there any other sources available eg Yorks and Lancs HQ if one exists?

6) what were the 4th Battalion Hallamshire Rifles called during the Boer War if they were re-named after it?

Many thanks for your help.

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I have made a mistake! JW Bird was only 12 when the second Boer War ended in 1902 so he would not have served in that. Ignore my question about the Boer War and please accept my apologies.

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:) I am rather getting into this now so you'll get a prompt reply.

1) Doesn't really matter JW Bird would have been 18 in 1908 so he would have easily been able to join the TA.

2) Answered it yourself

3) Awarded in 1921 for 12 years, or more, long service in the TA. War service counted double.

4) That's the reference to the medal roll that John Walter Bird's details are on. These are now at the National Archives, Kew but are not online. A visit there, or perhaps getting them to copy it for you, can provide a few more details.

5) http://www.1914-1918.net/yorkslancs.htm will be a good starting point. Despite what his MIC says we must presume that he went overseas in 1914 or 1915. The 1/4th went to France in April 1915. You should also aim to buy the War Diary for the 1/4th. Although I've just checked and it says that it isn't available online. Which is a surprise as I have a copy. PM me.

6) Well, really it was after the Cardwell reforms of 1881 that the Rifles bit was dropped and they became the 1st (Hallamshire) Volunteer Battalion. The unit was redesignated a few times but in 1909 they became the 4th (Hallamshire) Battalion.

Hope that helps and any more questions just ask.

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I can say that he definitely served in France because my aunt ( his 1st daughter), was born in 1913 and he sent embroided postcards to her from France. Sadly theses were stolen in a burglary on her house a few years before she died so are not available.

Regarding the date of his call up, was there a pecking order? For example did single men get called up first, the married men with no children then married men with children? In 1924 JWB was married with one daughter.

To contrast this, I think from what you have said, JWB was in the TA before the war started. It seems very likely that the photo of young JWB was taken when he joined the TA and Hallamshire Rifles. Probably around 1910. Did members of the TA get called up first?

Do you know where I can buy or view a copy of the War Diary for the 1/4th from please?

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Another mistake!! My mind is racing fast! I said in 1924 JWB was married with one daughter. This should say 1914 not 1924. Apologies once again.

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As far as I am aware there was no preferential treatment for married men at the start of the war. This idea only came later when men were encouraged to sign up but told they wouldn't be called up till later if the had children etc. At the start of the war whatever regiments were ready, TA or otherwise, were sent to the front. It's a moot point anyway as JW Bird has a 14/15 Star which he can only have gained through landing in France prior to 1916 and the 1/4th did this.

Was JW Bird a Sheffield man?

This link will also give you some good detail on what went on.

http://www.1914-1918.net/49div.htm

On the issue of the War Diary the NA have rescanned them all recently and I cant seem to find the 1/4th on their website. I have a copy of the old scan if you'd like it?

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Yes J W Bird was a Sheffield man. His birth on 19/11/1890 was recorded at Sheffield, Attercliffe. He lived in Sheffield all his life. He was also an accomplished clarinet player ( the photo of the young JWB describes him as "bandsman". Might he have played a clarinet as a bandsman in the TA?),and played in the orchestra pit at places like the Lyceum, Empire and Hippodrome theatres. I have a contract he was given for an engagement at one of the theatres. This was after the war when his job as an iron moulder obviously did not pay enough to keep his by then 3 children and a wife.

What is a PM please ( Private Mail?). I don't know how to do that using this site.

I would be most grateful for any scans etc you would like to send me. Do you need my email address?

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You should definitely consider a trip to the Local Studies Library as they have quite a few books that will help you fill in details about the Hallamshires.

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I will visit the local studies library. The number 200072 is written on the medal card. Would this number have remained the same throughout JWB's service no matter wether it was the Hallamshire zrifles or the Yorks and Lancs Regiment?

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The answer to that is no and that's part of the problem. That number, 200072, was a newly allocated number in 1917 when all the TA battalions were renumbered. If you want an idea about what it would have been I'll tell you about Harry Woollen a Corporal in the 1/4th at almost exactly the same time as JW Bird. His service record survives and includes his TA attestation form. Although even then it's far from clear what is going on to be honest. When he first attested in 1908 his number was 6870 but this is crossed out and replaced with 358. I'm not sure but I wonder if this may be due to the changeover from Militia to Territorial in 1908. The number 358 is used through the rest of his short term of engagement Territorial service. He was probably recalled at the outbreak of war when he is given a new number 1331 which then appears on all subsequent paperwork including his MIC. Unfortunately Harry didn't get around to being renumbered as he was invalided out of the war in mid 1916.

http://www.1914-1918.net/TF_renumbering_infantry.htm

So I guess it would depend how long JW Bird served in the TA. If he joined, lets say, 1909 but left 3 years later he would have been on reserve and could have been called up at outbreak of war when he could have been renumbered from his original number anyway.

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I have been in contact with the NA as suggested but a visit would, it seems, be a waste of time since all records they hold are available on line. I have not quite finished researching the war time activities of JW Bird but it may be the case that no more records exist. Perhaps other members researching WW1 ought to be aware of the fact that all records are on line.

Thank you for contacting The National Archives of the United Kingdom.
Contrary to the advice given to you at Sheffield History Forum, the surviving service records and campaign medal index cards of soldiers in the First World War are all online and even if you were to visit the National Archives, you would only be searching the online sources, there is no access to the original records. If you are unable to find a service record the likelihood is that one does not survive, a large percentage were lost in the Second World War. There should only be one campaign medal index card per soldier but if there was a duplicate, or if there was a card recording a mention in despatches, it would form part of the same collection that you can search online. Although you are of course welcome to visit the National Archives, it does not seem likely that you would find any more information on Private Bird by doing so.
To find out if someone was awarded a campaign medal during the First World War you can search the Campaign Medal Index Cards. These hold information on 5.5 million officers and soldiers - men and women - who fought in the British Army and Royal Flying Corps during the Great War. Please note there is a charge to download the images. Our website shows what information is held on a medal index card.
You could also search the same collection of medal records, plus surviving service records on Ancestry through the link on our guide to First World War Soldier's Records
If you need to respond to this email, please click on Reply to do so. It is very helpful for us for the text of the earlier emails to be included. For a new enquiry, please complete our contact form.
To avoid receiving our initial auto-response again please make sure you include the letters SART, with a space on either side, in your subject line.
Yours sincerely

Colin Williams
Remote Enquiries Duty Officer
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Sorry Kevin but the advice they have given you is wrong in one crucial element. The medal rolls are NOT online and can only be consulted at the NA. The Medal Index Card gives you the location of a mans entry on the Medal Rolls, the MIC is not all the information that can be gleaned.

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I've sent your comments to the NA and I'll post their response. Perhaps I didn't ask them the right questions.

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Sorry for late posting of the NA's response but I have been on holiday. below is the NA's response to saw119's comments. perhaps a trip to the NA is in order?

The Medal Index Cards are online. If you want to check whether a person received a medal, you will need to consult the original medal roll in series WO 329. This is not online and is available at Kew.
Yours sincerely
Stephen Twigge
Remote Enquires
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Guest Coldstreamer

Don't know if this will help or not but have you been to the York & Lancs regimental museum at Rotherham?

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Sad to say that I haven't been able to make any progress with JW Bird. I'm at a bit of a dead end at the moment.

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