Hs2 Route Maps

[hilldweller]

For anyone young enough to see the completion of the new HS2 railway link, here is a link showing the initial large scale route maps.

I'm afraid that I shall probably have shuffled off this mortal coil before the first sod is raised.

It looks as though there will be even less parking places at Meadowhell.

https://www.gov.uk/hs2-phase-two-initial-preferred-route-plan-and-profile-maps

HD

[DaveH]

Stopping at Meadowhell.

What a nice day out for a trainload of Londoners

1 hour 10 minutes from London and you can have a crap, stressfull day in Meadowhall shopping precinct before getting an equally fast train home.

[Stuart0742]

I don't think thats the idea Dave, Meadowhall has been chosen for its position and infrastructure access not its shopping centre.

Sheffield will get a station on the HS2 route to Europe, Meadowhall shopping centre does not come into it.

[Stuart0742]

Theres plenty of similar shopping centres in and around London with out having to come to Sheffield for those that live in London.

1 hour 10 minutes from London and you can have a crap, stressfull day in Meadowhall shopping precinct before getting an equally fast train home.

[DaveH]

I don't think thats the idea Dave, Meadowhall has been chosen for its position and infrastructure access not its shopping centre.

Sheffield will get a station on the HS2 route to Europe, Meadowhall shopping centre does not come into it.

If you think I am going to suffer going through the hell of Meadowhell just to get a fast train to London you can forget it.

Anyway, its going to take 20 years to build it.

I'll be getting on for 80 then, if I live that long

But it's nice to know that they are investing in my grandchildrens future

Let them go to Meadowhall to get a fast train to London.

[DaveH]

Theres plenty of similar shopping centres in and around London with out having to come to Sheffield for those that live in London.

There were also plenty of jobs in London in 1980 without building the MSC building across The Moor and inviting a load of overpaid executives up from London to come and work here.

[DaveH]

If you think I am going to suffer going through the hell of Meadowhell just to get a fast train to London you can forget it.

Anyway, its going to take 20 years to build it.

I'll be getting on for 80 then, if I live that long

But it's nice to know that they are investing in my grandchildrens future

Let them go to Meadowhall to get a fast train to London.

I think we could get locked in cycle here.

225mph is a fast train now.

When the high speed track is available to run it in 20 years time, - what if by then they have trains that can do say 350mph cutting the travel time even further?

Another 20 years and vast sums of money to replace track with some capable of handling the now even faster trains.

..and when that's in place, will trains be even faster still, - causing the whole process to be repeated?

[History dude]

I have looked at those proposals and this will cause MASSIVE dissruption to Meadowhall in it's construction. The Station seems to on the ground where the Supertram curves around. But the train station already there will have to have it's platforms moved. The traders in "Meadowhell" will go nuts over the dissruption caused by the works with also MASSIVE roadwork changes needed. It seems also to cutt through a great deal of housing and factories near to the proposed station.
When finished it will cause even greater volumes of traffic down the Attercliffe corridor, with people not only going to Meadowhall, but now for the trains to London and the North.
The effect on Sheffield Midland will be MASSIVE and it will loose a great deal of it's trade in trains to Leeds and London. The local stations on these routes will I think also suffer. Midland Main-Line will go bust unless they are connected with HS2.

[History dude]

Having now compared the plan with Google maps it seems the American Golf place would have to go and a large area of that funny named works! But it's really bad news for anyone living on Greasbro Road. All the houses at the bottom of it have just gone down in value. Except if the need to demolish the property then they will get a MASSIVE payout probably many times greater than the actual cost of the house. Following the course of the line down further it seems to need a lot of demolition of factory buildings and other buildings till it joins back up with the old Great Central line to Killamarsh. Generally speaking it keeps to that, except when it curves to much. So they straighten the line out. This is so they can keep the speed high.

In with the files on the website is a report saying that the station should be at Victoria. Presumably this has been rejected with these plans being put out. I think that the problem wasn't so much the route into Victoria, but the route out of Victoria. It would much harder to get it back on course for Leeds following the Woodhead line.

[lysander]

It is a proposal only. By the time the legal eagles have dissected the plan the route may well be very different...and all things are possible ( with sufficient cash) We are years behind the other major European railway systems....and the last major piece of route building ( the GCR extension to London) was shut down ,with undue haste, years ago!

In my life time I expect to be still traveling on overcrowded, over priced, "nodding donkeys"...which even third world countries rejected!

[mike142sl]

The current route cuts right through the middle of the County Camp Site at Hesley Wood. Mind you, that might not be a bad thing

[History dude]

It does more damage than what I thought it would. Many of the old railway paths have been done up to provide walks at great expense. Also it goes through the site that was recently rejected as a new rail terminal on enviormental grounds.

I've seem a lot of objections to the plan to put this new rail line into Sheffield Victoria. Saying it would cause a lot of dissruption to the City Center. I don't see how putting back Railway lines to Victoria would cause any problems at all. The track bed is still there. Railway lines don't use much space at all. You could get a main line down some side roads. Not like cars they take up too much room. If you got rid of the need to move people around in cars you could shrink the size of Sheffield to pre 1900 levels in size.

[lysander]

The debate about Victoria station rests upon it being essential to the economic growth of Sheffield. Unless it was a terminal station, with all the associated additional time needed to reverse the train, it would need to be on a loop-line. As the line is designed to use the natural contours the problem would be finding a way back out and onto the Blackburn Valley...not easy, and how much extra time would be needed to reach Leeds let alone the additional extra cost?

Of course, regionalisation is the modern name of the game and Meadowhall allows both Sheffield and Rotherham to gain....as well as other parts of the Sheffield City Region! Our transport infrastructure is increasingly being measured upon a regional basis and, frankly, Sheffield is no longer the important economic dynamo it once was!

[Stuart0742]

Not everybody is Doom and gloom

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-21251417

[DaveH]

Not everybody is Doom and gloom

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-21251417

I'm not doom and gloom about it Stuart.

But as we are both currently in our late 50's I agree fully with lysanders comments that I don't expect to be using it in my lifetime, although I am preety certain that I will be expected to pay for the building of it.

[History dude]

The debate about Victoria station rests upon it being essential to the economic growth of Sheffield. Unless it was a terminal station, with all the associated additional time needed to reverse the train, it would need to be on a loop-line. As the line is designed to use the natural contours the problem would be finding a way back out and onto the Blackburn Valley...not easy, and how much extra time would be needed to reach Leeds let alone the additional extra cost?

Of course, regionalisation is the modern name of the game and Meadowhall allows both Sheffield and Rotherham to gain....as well as other parts of the Sheffield City Region! Our transport infrastructure is increasingly being measured upon a regional basis and, frankly, Sheffield is no longer the important economic dynamo it once was!

You don't need to terminate at Victoria. You can use the line out to Penistone, but at Wortley instead of following the line, go on an old route now removed that heads in the direction of Penistone, however when you get near it you fork off to the branch to Silkstone and then head to Barnsley. It shouldn't be too problematic to get it back on course to Leeds from Barnsley.

Might cost money, but this thing is going to be way ahead of any Government figures.

[lysander]

Just how much extra time would this pleasant tour of the South Pennines take before heading directly toward Leeds? The name of the game is High Speed! For many people in Sheffield and in its City Region ,access to Meadowhall is far easier than fighting through traffic to Victoria.

[History dude]

You are forgetting that the effects of this new railway station at Meadowhall, which would provide faster links to the North and London, causing traffic, up the Attercliffe corridor, to be greatly increased. Whereas now you have only the problem of traffic going to Meadowhall, you will also have traffic going to the new station. So if you are in Sheffield your journey time to Meadowhall would be as bad or considerably worse than taking the tour route which I do not agree would be slow anyway.

If you follow the links in the first post of this section you will find a report done that states that the Victoria route would have a greater economic impact than the other route. You have to bear in mind that apart from the shopping places the area is largely industry of a kind that doesn't benefit from high speed passenger trains. Though of course it would benefit from a decent goods rail service, though the road lobby will block that wanting to trucks on the roads, and isn't even on the cards anyway. Whereas the office and business people need faster links and they are located in Sheffield. And live the further places away from Meadowhall, in places such as Hallamshire. Hence the reports conclusions about the economic impact of the two stations.

There would also be less need to rip most of the Tinsley area to bits and cause MASSIVE problems to Meadowhall and the area by putting the line in. Since the railway lines already are or were in place running into Sheffield via Darnall. With a track bed that was built to take rail lines in the first place and that also goes for the line out of Sheffield.

It would also open up the possibility of re-opening the Sheffield to Manchester line at some later date as another high speed route.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/maximising-the-economic-impact-of-hs2-investment-in-sheffield

The link to the report is above.

[madannie77]

You are forgetting that the effects of this new railway station at Meadowhall, which would provide faster links to the North and London, causing traffic, up the Attercliffe corridor, to be greatly increased. Whereas now you have only the problem of traffic going to Meadowhall, you will also have traffic going to the new station. So if you are in Sheffield your journey time to Meadowhall would be as bad or considerably worse than taking the tour route which I do not agree would be slow anyway.

If you follow the links in the first post of this section you will find a report done that states that the Victoria route would have a greater economic impact than the other route. You have to bear in mind that apart from the shopping places the area is largely industry of a kind that doesn't benefit from high speed passenger trains. Though of course it would benefit from a decent goods rail service, though the road lobby will block that wanting to trucks on the roads, and isn't even on the cards anyway. Whereas the office and business people need faster links and they are located in Sheffield. And live the further places away from Meadowhall, in places such as Hallamshire. Hence the reports conclusions about the economic impact of the two stations.

There would also be less need to rip most of the Tinsley area to bits and cause massive problems to Meadowhall and the area by putting the line in. Since the railway lines already are or were in place running into Sheffield via Darnall. With a track bed that was built to take rail lines in the first place and that also goes for the line out of Sheffield.

It would also open up the possibility of re-opening the Sheffield to Manchester line at some later date as another high speed route.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/maximising-the-economic-impact-of-hs2-investment-in-sheffield

The link to the report is above.

But that report is titled "Maximising the economic impact of HS2 investment in Sheffield". The intention of HS2 is to serve and stimulate the economy of regions, not just cities. As such, the best place to locate a station for South Yorkshire is Meadowhall or somewhere closer to the centre of the area than Sheffield City Centre.

The argument about increased traffic to Meadowhall causing problems also holds for siting the station at Victoria. Given the road infrastructure in the City Centre I would think siting the station at Victoria would cause far more congestion than the Meadowhall option.

The existing railway lines and trackbeds were engineered for speeds of up to 100mph or so. Running trains at up to twice that speed is not possible on much of the existing formation, hence the need to build an entirely new line suitable for such high speeds.

[History dude]

I don't see how sticking a Station at Meadowhall will improve the "region" any better than it would at Victoria. As I have explained already those wishing to use this new service will be the business people, not some local person who might shop at Meadowhall. They live in the more prosperous parts of Sheffield which means the outskirts of Sheffield. That's the only people that will benefit from fast trains which don't stop at many stations. The regional effect won't happen anyway. If you wanted that it would have to have more local stations and better still plenty of fast goods trains to bring development to those regions. If you could shift the big trucks of the roads and onto the railways you would have more clear roads.

The current plans make use of old trackbeds so that blows that argument out of the water. What you mean is that because of the old lines are still in use and need extensive alteration the old lines would be too controversial to alter as they can't be straightend out without smashing through areas that would see the Government who proposed such things out of office faster than an HST.

I spent several hours following the old line from Oxspring (just outside Penistone) all the way down to Sheffield and out towards Darnall using Google satellite maps. The old trackbed is still there and is only being used at pathways. Since the HST is only double track, it wouldn't cause any problems. I don't see why the old trackbed couldn't be made to accomdate these fast speed trains and there are no major curves till you hit Oxspring Junction and take the route into Barnsley. But you could divert the line at Wortley heading towards Silkstone Common or take it back to the direction of the M1 motorway. All over virgin ground of course.

As for the line through Sheffield most of the old trackbed remains and was often much wider then the two lines that still head towards Woodhouse.

Traffic in Sheffield City Center would not increase much since customers going to London or Leeds already go to the station which is very close to the older one. But one at Meadowhall would put much greater strain on Attercilffe Road. The Victoria link would have less of an effect on Sheffield Midland. Due to the linkage that could be put in place. As that would lose it's most profitable services if the station is sited eleswhere.

Let's face it it's not going to Sheffield Victoria because that would give a lot of suport to the Labour Council. These things are done for political reasons most of the time. It's well known that the Humber Bridge was built for political reasons in surport of the Labour Party for instance.

[lysander]

With respect,Sheffield Victoria is at the extremities of the City Region. Meadowhall will serve the interests of Sheffield, Rotherham and both Barnsley, Doncaster.,Bolsover, North East Derbyshire and Chesterfield can access Meadowhall far easier then Victoria. The only parts of the City Region which might find Victoria a sensible location are the Derbyshire Dales.

HS trains travel on dedicated tracks incorporating minimal curvature and steady gradients which might make some of our old Victorian trackbeds difficult to adapt. As far as I am aware they are freight free!

[Stuart0742]

Given the proposed infrastructure, its interchange with the existing rail network, its road access to the wider area, the Meadowhall/Tinsley option is ideal.

The Victoria Station option yes would be good but does not have many plus points from an operating point of view.

The thing to remember this is not a station for Sheffield, its a station for the Sheffield City Region.

[madannie77]

I don't see how sticking a Station at Meadowhall will improve the "region" any better than it would at Victoria. As I have explained already those wishing to use this new service will be the business people, not some local person who might shop at Meadowhall. They live in the more prosperous parts of Sheffield which means the outskirts of Sheffield. That's the only people that will benefit from fast trains which don't stop at many stations. The regional effect won't happen anyway. If you wanted that it would have to have more local stations and better still plenty of fast goods trains to bring development to those regions. If you could shift the big trucks of the roads and onto the railways you would have more clear roads.

The current plans make use of old trackbeds so that blows that argument out of the water. What you mean is that because of the old lines are still in use and need extensive alteration the old lines would be too controversial to alter as they can't be straightend out without smashing through areas that would see the Government who proposed such things out of office faster than an HST.

I spent several hours following the old line from Oxspring (just outside Penistone) all the way down to Sheffield and out towards Darnall using Google satellite maps. The old trackbed is still there and is only being used at pathways. Since the HST is only double track, it wouldn't cause any problems. I don't see why the old trackbed couldn't be made to accomdate these fast speed trains and there are no major curves till you hit Oxspring Junction and take the route into Barnsley. But you could divert the line at Wortley heading towards Silkstone Common or take it back to the direction of the M1 motorway. All over virgin ground of course.

As for the line through Sheffield most of the old trackbed remains and was often much wider then the two lines that still head towards Woodhouse.

Traffic in Sheffield City Center would not increase much since customers going to London or Leeds already go to the station which is very close to the older one. But one at Meadowhall would put much greater strain on Attercilffe Road. The Victoria link would have less of an effect on Sheffield Midland. Due to the linkage that could be put in place. As that would lose it's most profitable services if the station is sited eleswhere.

Let's face it it's not going to Sheffield Victoria because that would give a lot of suport to the Labour Council. These things are done for political reasons most of the time. It's well known that the Humber Bridge was built for political reasons in surport of the Labour Party for instance.

Shoppers at Meadowhall have nothing to do with the siting. The HS2 route has been chosen to serve as much of the population as possible whilst causing the minimum disruption to existing railways and properties.

The HS2 station at Meadowhall is to serve the City Region, not just the City of Sheffield, and as such is much better sited at Meadowhall than in Sheffield CIty Centre. It will be used by people who want or need to travel between parts of the country (and beyond) quickly. That will be business people and leisure travellers. Is it only business travellers who use HS1, perchance? No, of course it isn't.

My trackbed argument is certainly not blown out of the water. Tell me precisely how many miles of existing trackbed are being used without major alteration. I certainly do not mean what you suggest, so do not try to put words into my mouth. Existing tracks which are currently in use need to be kept in use for slower passenger and freight trains. If they were used for high speed trains there would be nowhere for these slower trains to go. Hence the need for a new line.

If you think existing railway alignments can be used by trains running at up to 200mph then I suggest you have a word with all the permanent way engineers and experts out there who clearly know less than you about these things. Perhaps you should talk to the engineers in Spain and France and elsewhere where high speed railways have been built, as they all seemed to have used the apparently incorrect belief that high speed lines need new alignments. I do not think that following a railway line on Google Maps is a better method of planning a major infrastructure project than rather more detailed ground and aerial surveys carried out by properly qualified and experienced engineers.

In order to upgrade the West Coast Main Line for 140mph running (actually now limited to 125 mph due to signalling difficulties) Railtrack & Network Rail spent £10 billion and caused many years of disruption, and the rolling stock capable of running on that line at high speed has to have a narrow profile and a tilt mechanism because of the constricted nature of the existing formation. For a 200mph line, using existing formations and relocating what would become the slow lines would probably cost more than building a new line from scratch.

[History dude]

Given the proposed infrastructure, its interchange with the existing rail network, its road access to the wider area, the Meadowhall/Tinsley option is ideal.

The Victoria Station option yes would be good but does not have many plus points from an operating point of view.

The thing to remember this is not a station for Sheffield, its a station for the Sheffield City Region.

One station will not benefit anyone much. As I said this is just eyewash. It's like saying that Meadowhall benefits Rotherham. When most of Rotherham has lost it's shopping areas, now the Rotherham station will come under threat. Any station at Meadowhall will increase Road Traffic greater than you think. The road network can't cope with what's going to Meadowhall now at times. You simply can't put a station in and expect the road and transport links to cope with demand. I see nothing in these plans that will create economic demand for any other places other than Sheffield, unless they have a station of their own and are linked directly to the high speed service.

Private Railway companies will not see a profit in using the Old Stations at Sheffield and Rotherham and so these will be like the Bus Station in Sheffield, under used by the general public and bus operators.

[History dude]

The HS2 route has been chosen to serve as much of the population as possible whilst causing the minimum disruption to existing railways and properties.

My trackbed argument is certainly not blown out of the water. Tell me precisely how many miles of existing trackbed are being used without major alteration.

If you think existing railway alignments can be used by trains running at up to 200mph then I suggest you have a word with all the permanent way engineers and experts out there who clearly know less than you about these things. Perhaps you should talk to the engineers in Spain and France and elsewhere where high speed railways have been built, as they all seemed to have used the apparently incorrect belief that high speed lines need new alignments. I do not think that following a railway line on Google Maps is a better method of planning a major infrastructure project than rather more detailed ground and aerial surveys carried out by properly qualified and experienced engineers.

It clearly has not been thought out well. The proposed route causes MASSIVE disruptions. I remember well the building of Supertram, that caused MASSIVE disruptions to trading places. Meadowhall traders might be quite now, but if it gets off the ground, which I don't think it will. Well not to Meadowhall anyway... They will moan lack the clappers about the loss of trade caused by the building of it. But the rest of the route in our region is highly controversial in many areas, with sums of money that have been spent to improve areas already undertaken, will see them destroyed by the HST route. And it goes through an area which was blocked not so long back as a rail terminal by the public and other campaigners.

With all due respect France and Spain have low populations and can put HS Rail links in very easy. You simply can't go looking to these countries ideas of transport to solve the UK problems of high speed rail.

I'm not saying that the Victoria Line wouldn't need to re-engineered for the needs of HST. But if you start with something that has been a railway line already it proves it can work. In the route to Meadowhall it goes on virgin ground for trains. You would be going on ground that has been used for heavy industry and coal working. I suspect nobody has done any work on that section of line as to it's feasibility. This was because I suspect of political reasons not any engineering assessments. In that they wanted to send the line to Leeds bypassing Sheffield, but had to compromise and so sent it via Meadowhall.

In fact the whole plan was probably "cobbled" together by architects and the like at great expense, but is by no means an actual plan of what the finished line will look like, if it goes ahead. In no stretch of the imagination was this a plan by experienced engineers of the Railway industry.